Reason why should BLS get banned.

First topic message reminder :

Ok so scoopphase and that random boi are dueling, ninjas vs plants

scoopphase 1700 LP
random boi 700 LP

scoopphases field: REDMD pulsar no backrows
hand: 2 cards

random bois field: 1 token no backrows
hand: 1 card

scoop phase ends random boi draws veiler summons it sync formula eff top mind control take pulsar go stardust summons last card in hand BLS

broken shit? anyway this is a good reason for it to get banned and here is a chat between em after bls showed up

Spoiler:

yugioh is bad for health

http://www.konami.com/yugioh/blog/?p=7696

Almost every deck, runs all of those cards, the few that don't run at least 4/6 of those cards (those being the few evolkaiser decks and i think some agent decks and a few dark world, but by a huge majority all or almost all of those cards are ran in just every deck)


So yeah it's not false.

Sry thought you would understand, here lemme make it bold for you.

SirFunchalot wrote:

Almost every single top tier deck runs Gorz, Dark Hole, Reborn, Brionac, Mind Control, and Trishula, and almost any of those cards can instantly give that deck a win after being played.

False. Hand there's a reason the top decks play those cards, it's called winning.

Yeah, and they shouldn't win just simply by playing broken limited cards that once they hit the field their effects are so powerful that they give you a huge advantage and open up a game winning play.

If u constantly lose once any of those cards you listed are played, you might need to check yourself as a duelist.

i agree with frost^^^

the only cards i run with the ones you listed were gorz, dark hole, and monster reborn.

but the last 2 i have been playing with since i started playing. and gorz i started using from when i knew about him. an in just the same way that they can be used against you, they can work for you. my main deck can destroy alot of top tier decks, but people hardly know about the archetype to think of it as a threat. my last statement goes with what frost and gradyent said, reexamine your deck and make it to where you top deck, and dont rely on luck to top deck. that is what i did by taking out all of the semi-useless cards, and putting in cards that can be used at any time.

for all of the topping decks and some of the cards you listed, if you are running a grave heavy deck, think about fiend comedian. it benefits you whether you call it right or wrong

the last bit was free

If Heavy was still in, then Karakuris would be tier 0. They're already Tier 1 or 1 1/2. The problem is, you just can't win Funch. I'm all for balance, don't get me wrong. Some stupid cards just shouldn't be made. But if you ban everything good, the sub par cards will be good, and eventually it'll turn into: "Omg, he sacked Trap Hole against my Blue Eyes! Ban Tra Hole already!" That's what the game used to be. Upstart Goblin used to be limited as a matter of fact, and that card is kinda crap. To completely balance the format, you'd have to ban far more than those cards. And for what? The format actually is kinda balanced. Agents, Plants, and Laggia are the main meta, but the rest is diverse. The reason for the power creep is to make it more interesting. As long as it stays balanced, it's FUN. Some of the cards you mentioned will probably get hit eventually. I could see Hyperion to 2, bc double Hyperion a few turns inns kinda silly. But Agents aren't broken really. They're good, but I have little problem beating them usually.
As for the autolose thing, you're wrong there. "Omg, he mind controlled my monster so he can synchro! I scoop!" Can it cause you to win? Yeah. Mind Control their boss and attack them directly. But the same thing applies for something like Smashing Ground. You're jut used to good players using good cards. Do I insta win if I special Striker, normal Tengu and synch for Brio turn 1? No. Did coolchemist win when he normal summoned Striker, tuned it with Tengu for Brio and discarded his last 2 cards to return my BLS and Rush Rhino to my hand when I had one other card in hand and 3200 lp? Yep. But that's because he waited to use it. Would he have won if he summoned him as soon as possible to return my 4 set traps so he could get in a clear attack? No, he would have minuses himself for nothing, and I could have Veiler'd his ***.

How do you not lose late game to a gorz drop? 2700atk + potentially big token when resources draw thin is usually game winning. How do you not lose to a field wipe followed by a swarm in the case of Dark Hole (other than battlefader/gorz)? How do you not lose to Brionac dumping Dandylion when they have an unused spore in the graveyard and all you have late game is a monster that they just bounced? How do you not lose to Mind Control taking your monster, then them using it to not only clear your field of a threat but combo into Xyz/synchro plays? How do you not lose to Trishula getting rid of your last piece of considerable field presence, a key card in the grave and a resource in hand, other than have effect veiler? How do you not lose to Monster Reborn bringing back that BLS for a second round when it can attack 2x for game?


NONE of these cards add ANY skill to the game, they just show up in play and have a tremendous shift in momentum that usually ends games. There's literally no way to prepare for them since they're in everything and so generic that almost every deck can consistently use them. Why do you people insist that because these cards are overpowered and win games, that I'm the one at fault for losing to overpowered cards, when you know very well you've all lost to these cards many many times. Can't we all just agree that they're broken and the metagame would be a tad more fair without them?


*edit* how would karakuri be tier 0 when they lose to roach and veiler so easily? imo even though they sack they're doomed to tier 2 at the best for a while.

i have one card that counters and can be used against every single one of those scenarios
Blazing dust explosion
"Remove from play all "Laval" monsters from your Graveyard. Destroy cards on the field, up to the number of monsters removed from play by this effect."

blackwings will be get another similar card that does the same thing and allows them to special as many Blackwings that were banished this way, and if i remember correctly a few other archetypes are suppose to get another card that does similar.

another card for most of the situations to keep me alive is torrential tribute, wait until they look spent, or have normal summoned and use it, clear their field.

if they try to set up their hand i have card destruction(which i admit has backfired, but i can reset my hand as well as get rid of their current plan).

as long as they have a monster on the field i can use crimson blader to keep them at bay with their high level monsters.

all of these cards i listed i main, for those type of scenarios, and i have plenty more cards to keep me alive for one more turn when i can make the finishing move and end the game myself.

those are the reasons why i say you should reexamine your deck build, and use stuff that compliments your deck, and not use the same 15 cards that other people use in their decks(extra deck not inluded). an if you disagree with me i can get a base build of 15 cards to support any deck and it will consist of cards that i am sure that anybody on here runs in their decks

Blazing Dust Explosion doesn't stop dark hole, reborn, trishula, mind control, brionac, gorz from doing anything any more than any other form of monster control. The point is that if you DON'T have BDE or some form set (more common late game than you think thanks to 3 mst and heavy and your opponent baiting them out with other cards) so when these power cards drop they're hard to deal with. Card Destruction doesn't help here either other than potentially discarding them (try doing this to dark world though). Crimson Blader is an awful synchro monster who is almost always outclassed but things like Scrap Dragon.

I need to be re-tested lol

BDE may not stop them, but you will still survive and at the same time destroy them. im not so much focusing on stopping the effects as much as i am focusing on destroying the monsters. a strategy to keep in mind, and this can be applied to just about anything, is that you dont always have to focus on stopping something from happening, you can focus on disrupting an opponents plan and ruining what they can do. also think of it like this, before your opponents syncs for trish, BDE on all of their cards, focusing on the trish material, or before they attack trish material. crimson blader i hardly see as being a terrible card since as long as you can get it out before your opponent summons high level monsters, or even after you give yourself an opening to bring him out. and about heavy storm, starlight road, MST stardust dragon. you are focusing on how the cards are used against you and thinking of worst case scenario in which case you will probably lose anyways. instead of thinking about how awesome of a hand your opp. has, think about how you can counter their moves, i do not say negate cuz there are limited ways of negating, but there are plenty of ways to counter.

also about your opponent baiting out your cards, bait out their mst or heavy storm. whatever they can do, you can do also, depending on your hand and deck build. but the same goes for them, they can only do with what they have in their hand, and what is in their deck

BDE also only works in lavals which aren't close to tier 1. They can't compete with the field disruption of Dark World or Agents, and they sure as heck can't keep the pace with plants or karakuri. Also after BDE you lose all of your rekindling targets, which is a bad thing since rekindling is basically your win condition. Most good players don't go off unless they know they can do it safely or the reward is worth the risk (aka a game win) and the repercussions won't be insurmountable to come back from. Blader is far too easy to get rid of and needing to kill things in battle is an effect most monsters sans BLS can't use effectively (BLS is way easier to play). Also blader isn't out yet in the TCG so it hardly makes a difference anyway.

one thing about lavals that you are forgetting is that they work best with grave and remove from play. those are where they work best. plus it doesnt hurt my deck since i use a banished zone rekindling called return from the different dimension. i never use BDE unless i can recover using that or if i have no other option. and out of all of the decks that you listed the only one that i can honestly say that i have trouble beating are karakuris. i can keep up with plants, DW, and agents. and if you want we can have a match or two so i can show you

Funch really is a good player nivedo...he knows how to counter and build decks. He only didn't get stardust because his hands sucked and I don't five stardust to people that I pwn 2-0. I'm done with this conversation. Nothing I will say will change your mind. Luck is and always will be a part of yugioh, and banning everything you don't happen to like and unbalancing the meta isn't going to change that.

Did you ever play in the format after the first limitation of Pot of Avarice? That was probably the single most balanced the game ever was. That was like 6 years ago though lol.

LegendaryFrost wrote:

If u constantly lose once any of those cards you listed are played, you might need to check yourself as a duelist.

This this this this this.

Yes, those cards are game-breaking. But you know what? A Red Eyes B. Dragon (not the good one, the normal, no-effect one) can break the friggin' game in the right circumstance! Shapesnatch, ffs, can win games!

It's a game played with cards: no duh a lot of it comes down to chance, and no duh that major haxing happens. Just like in poker when a 6 of hearts comes on the river to give you that straight to double up your earnings, someone in Yugioh can topdeck a Gorz or Dark Hole and break the game wide open. What makes decks and players good is how they deal with the major threats of the deck they're facing, and whether they can set themselves up so they're best protected against the most scenarios.

But face it: some situations are unavoidable. There are duels where something happens and that's that, there's no coming back. But that stuff happens, for you and against you. I don't see why you should complain because for a couple duels luck wasn't on your side, because either A. you made a mistake or had a better option available to you earlier or B. It wasn't meant to be. Whatever the case, the law of averages says it'll come right back to aid you at some point.

All I'm saying is that shit happens, and whether you can, could have, or can't handle it, it's what makes the game diverse and exciting, no matter what people say about a certain deck being autowin or whatever, because that's definitely not the case.

I am well aware that any single card under the right circumstances can win a game, the problem is that almost EVERY DECK runs these broken cards and EVERY DECK will play them at some time and WIN for NO OTHER REASON than the fact that these cards are OVERPOWERED.

Lets take an incredibly powerful card like Reborn Tengu for example, he is a 1700 beatstick that can be searched out of the deck by a few cards like Summoner Monk, and he replaces himself VERY easily. Some (myself included) might say he's a card that is overpowered, but does he straight up win games almost entirely by itself? No. Reborn Tengu usually requires an extensive combo to get a game winning situation open. Does Dark Hole, Monster Reborn, Trishula, etc require that? Nope. As soon as Dark Hole is played your opponents monsters are gone and you can attack directly for game. Trishula gets rid of 3 cards your opponent wants and severely disrupts your opponents plans, usually winning you the game. Monster Reborn can bring back a lot of threatening monsters and steam roll game-winning combos very easily. Monster Reborn was banned for years, no reason why it should come back now, same with Dark Hole. Mind Control is no different than Change of Heart is (which is a banned card) since most times you use Change of Heart it isn't to attack with the monster anyway. Trishula is WAY better than Goyo Guardian, who's banned, why not ban Trishula too? I don't see why just because broken cards exist we need to think they're just part of the game and that the game wouldn't be better off without them...

the thing wiht goyo though is that it is another monster reborn that can be used once per turn and has attack to back himself up. trish is a one time use. sure the end effects may be better, but alot of times when they decide to ban a certain card or two, im guessing they ban cards that create an OTK or FTK with little set up first. which is the reason for mind master being banned from what i understand. then from there they look at top tier decks and review why they are top tier decks, and either limit or ban the key cards. cards like reborn tengu, if nothing else will be semi limited since limiting it would be the same as banning it in most cases

Fine, then eliminate all the broken cards you say should be banned and maul all the decks that use them. Congratulations, you just solved the game and pissed off thousands upon thousands of players! Not to mention forcing EVERYONE on the competitive scene to adjust their decks, side decks and mindsets drastically to compensate for the massacre of bannings.

There are some limitations that should be put on cards, sure, like how JD going to three is pretty much BS and BLS coming back for his little experiment is quite crazy. Though not necessarily in a bad way. But the face of the game changes with every new release of cards, and cards can fall off the face of the earth pretty damn quickly (See: Megamorph, Manticore of Darkness). And yes, some of these cards being classified as such comes as a result from banlist moves, but the point is that the game's always changing. This discussion could easily end up somewhat moot in a couple months when OOC comes out, Inzecters and Ninjas take center stage, and some of the cards talked about here take a hit naturally.

Also, I hate-hate-hated Goyo when he was out, for the record. He pissed me off, I'm glad he's banned. xD

Goyo Guardian is a Change of Heart on a stick that not only beats face but janks the creatures he kills, also Change of Heart is obviously banned for the same reason Brain Control is, that you can attack with the monster you take with the lack of a powerful draw-back like Enemy Controller has for the same effect. You do not need to run the power creeps to win games, although it does help a lot. A well built deck with a good amount of negation, counter, and usually disruption can be devastating. Spells and Traps are the backbone of the game and they are the key sources to winning games. There are plenty of S/T's that do anything you need them to do and the S/T's that are archtypically specific are that way because they are powerful and they are meant to give pure or mostly pure decks of that type a little edge. There will always be powerful combos but there will always be cards that are powerful by themselves as well. The game is very balanced. When one or two decks are not dominating enough to make all the other decks move their sideboard hate for them to their main deck then the format must have a fair diversity of good decks and therefor balance is established. When an archtype gets too powerful for all the power creeps to handle then there are some limitations/bans/restrictions to restore balance. The reason why BLS, Trish, Brio, and others are so generic is because they are so powerful, they do not need to be banned because every deck has access to them as well as access to answers for them. If you do not top your answer then sure you lose to the power creep but that is part of the game. Luck plays a major factor, but more powerful than the part of luck in the game is the factor of Deck Building and Play Skill. If your deck is lame it is lame but if you have a good deck build you will usually find an answer to the threats the opponent tosses your way. Some one once said about a different card game that there are no wrong plays, just wrong answers. I believe that this statement holds very true to that card game and to this game alike...

My god, these walls of text make my eyes hurt a little. xD

The argument "if you're good and your deck is good you will have an answer to the broken cards" isn't a valid excuse because most of the time you DON'T have that answer to the broken card available to be played when the broken card is played, so you lose. Cards that every deck can use that are overpowered and win games have almost always been the cards that end up on the list.

Raigeki
Harpie's
Duo
confiscation
forceful sentry
cyber stein
cyber jar
fiber jar
reborn
dark hole
brain con
snatch steal
change of heart
last will
yata-garasu
bls-eotb
chaos emperor
chaos sorc
dark strike fighter
witch of the b forest
disk commander
sinister serpent
cold wave
giant trunade
pot of greed
graceful charity
premature burial
CCV
imperioal order
ring of destruction
royal oppression


LITERALLY ALL OF THESE CARDS were so generically viable and overpowered that they were banned. How can you honestly sit here, stare at this list of generic broken cards that open up game winning plays by themselves, and not say that the new batch of generic broken cards that open up game winning plays by themselves SHOULDN'T be banned?

At the same time, they won't always have those cards that you mentioned. Several of them, including the ones you're mentioning the most, are at 1 already, and even then if they draw them they might not be able to use them as effectively as they're infamous for.

Also, that list you just posted was constructed over several YEARS of play. And yet you're talking about a list of over half the length of that one above of cards you think should be banned right now.

Makes total sense to me. *shot for sarcasm*

gorz = generic wins games
mind con = " "
trishula = " "
one for one = " "
brionac = " "
reborn = " " + was previously banned
dark hole = " "
future fusion = not quite as generic but has always enabled OTK plays and sets up graveyard


These are the cards out of the lot I mentioned that definitely need to go to 0. The rest could probably be at 1 and that would be fine.

gorz is very situational and i se it being your fault for falling for the bait.

one for one i wouldnt say is a generic win, it might set up for the generic win, but that depends on the deck alot of times.

brio sure may be generic but it still requires you opponent to have hand control, so if you disrupt hand control and bait them, there would be no problem. i overextend at times JUST to make them lose hand control.

reborn and dark hole i dont see being banned next format or the one after only because it doesnt make any deck win. it may open the field, but there are ways to stop those cards from activating, same thing with future fusion.

I do not think the powerful cards in the game should go to zero. There are powerful plays as well as powerful answers to powerful plays. Sure you will not have the right answer all the time but they will not have the game-winning play all the time either. Also, most of the cards that were listed on that ridiculously long list of card you think should be dealt with lend strongly to certain combos that are set up extremely easy with their aid or are generic and powerful enough to help keep balance. Their will always be powerful threats as well as answers to powerful threats and plays. If you are in a position where you lose to these plays so often to think that a list as long as the one mentioned needs to be dealt with then you probally need to check yourself like Frost said. For every play there is an answer. There is a good amount of balance in this fact. Sure, your opponent might sack a BLS like a pro but there is no reason you can not use that Solemn Warning which is at two while BLS is at one, giving you more of a chance statisticly of having it when they play the BLS, to stop them. Good decks are built to crush fools. Good decks have the power creeps and answers to them as well. Sometimes an archtype will have to much synergy and efficiency with their creeps and answers and that is when bannings come into effect. if there is some devasting combo that a generic card enables that most likely the person on the wrong end of it can not bounce back from then a generic card might be neutered. Bannings are made to restore balance but there are cards printed to aid in creating balance as well, for every card there is an answer. Every card can be brought down. As I said, good decks play answers and threats. It takes a skilled player to not just sack a win but get one consistantly. Deck building and play skill by far play a role in the game way more powerfully than luck ever could and people should not complain because they get sacked every once in a while.