September 2013 Banlist?

First topic message reminder :

NOTE: EDITED TO REFLECT THE TCG LIST FOR SEPTEMBER 1ST TO DECEMBER 31ST, 2013.

Banned:
Burner, Dragon Ruler of Sparks
Reactan, Dragon Ruler of Pebbles
Stream, Dragon Ruler of Bubbles
Lightning, Dragon Ruler of Drafts
Card Destruction
Elemental Hero Stratos
Spellbook of Judgment
Super Rejuvenation
Solemn Judgment
Ultimate Offering
Number 16: Shock Master
Gateway of the Six
Heavy Storm
Monster Reborn
Pot of Avarice

Limited:
Atlantean Dragoons
Brotherhood of the Fire Fist – Spirit
Deep Sea Diva
Genex Ally Birdman
Rescue Rabbit
Thunder King Rai-oh
Evigishki Mind Augus
Deloren, Tiger King of the Ice Barrier
Constellar Ptolemy M7
Dimensional Fissure
Gold Sarcophagus
Royal Tribute
Bottomless Trap Hole
Compulsory Evacuation Device
Eradicator Epidemic Virus
Macro Cosmos
Soul Drain
Torrential Tribute

Semi-Limited:
Mezuki
Plaguespreader Zombie
T.G. Striker
Fire Formation – Tenki
Dimensional Prison

No longer on list:
Destiny Hero – Malicious
The Agent of Mystery – Earth
Tsukuyomi
A Hero Lives
Black Whirlwind
E – Emergency Call
Hieratic Seal of Convocation
Pot of Duality
Scapegoat

*Takes a bow* I accept my award. So I was thinking and the meta will now be something like:

Infernity
Bujin
Water
Agents
Fire Fist
Constellar
Evilswarm
Dragunities
Dragon Rulers
Boxers
Karakuri Geargia
Re-Soil Psychics
Blackwing
Rock Stun
Zombie
Gadget
Dark World
Some Teledad Variant...maybe

More or less the better decks are higher on the list. But all will be decent at worst...whaat people will actually play is a different matter but I can see any one of these topping regionals or even YCS many of them.

Interesting format. It makes no fucking sense whatsoever, Heavy should really always be at 1, and like I said above I am cringing in anticipation for more power creep cards, but it does allow for a more diverse meta and it IS very interesting to say the least.

EDIT: Let us not forget Chain Beat, which will be trolling everything now. Staple traps may now be a total of 8, but Emptiness is still at 3, it can run Escape Device which is at 3, Fiendish Chain will be a good trap still since Infernities will be blowing shit up all over the place, hell, even Scrap Iron Scarecrow is decent with no Heavy. Not that I'll run it but still.

How will Dragon Rulers even be partly meta with no baby dragons? lol

NoUserName wrote:

How will Dragon Rulers even be partly meta with no baby dragons? lol

1. You doubt the power of the major Dragon Rulers and their ability to mesh with other stuff. I've seen decks without the babies and they're still legit for sure.

2. Okay, f*** it, I am so giving a wall of text when I have free time tomorrow afternoon. >_>

I just wanna see how because I'm just clueless on how they actually are "Dragon Rulers" without the babies. That's all. 50% of the deck is pretty much gone so I just wanna see the the replacement for it.

Something like this:

People were making a big deal about this deck when the Snake OCG list was revealed. I tried it out and it is deadly. OCG version is obviously way better since they have 3 Sarc, 1 Card D, 1 Rejuvenation, and 1 Trish. Fewer Gold Sarc actually hurts the most because it hurts consistancy.   This screenshot is what I randomly just cobbled together from my somewhat tested OCG build. So it might not be maxed potential but you get the idea. There's also a version with Lylas, Rykos, 3 Charge and a Recharge but meh, Lightsworn.

These changes actually forces the deck to adapt past pure derping out rank 7. As good as the deck was, I barely ever lost to Dragon Rulers this format, regardless of what I was playing. They were just too predictable. Now they're not. Not saying they're better now though, but they still have a few tricks up their sleeve. Even the usual weakness of Plant variants is moot here. Drawing into 2 or 3 of your 3 Plants sucks. And it seems to happen all the time to me, especially when I'm playing 3 Axis Plant, and especially with Spore (like seriously, wtf Spore, stop being at the top of my deck). Here...just discard it for a Dragon Ruler or Ravine. Even meh hands where you draw all 3 are workable.

OCG: Meta
TCG: ...Maybe. This format is too retarded to know for certain yet.


EDIT: *sits down with popcorn, anxiously awaiting Gallade's rant*

A rant, you say? Why sure, I can do that. Gonna get edgy up in this place (actually, not really. Maybe once or twice).

Harper7000 wrote:

Oh guys, Compulsory is sooooooo broken bc at best it is a 0 in advantage. Better limit it. And Dewlorian and Mind Augus which have done absolutely nothing ever.

Ok, sarcasm aside, I'm not seeing what they're trying to accomplish here. Let's look at some specific things for a second shall we?

Banned:
Babies
Judgment

Limited:
Fire Fist Spirit
Dragoons

Semi:
Tenki

All of those cards came out THIS YEAR. Babies and Judgment were legal for all of a few months. But over here we have

Semi:
Mezuki
Plaguespreader
Striker

Unlimited:
Whirlwind
Mali
Earth
Convocation

All of which are old cards, some much older than others, all of which were abused enough to be put on this list. What's the message here? "Don't buy our new cards". It's hard for me to feel sorry for someone who beats me irl with Prophecy because they can afford it, but when they get Judgment for all of 2 months and spent $80 each on them and now their deck is nearing irrelevance just bc of that one hit, I almost do. Really, the card should never have existed, so of course it should be hit. But why hit them so immediately and then bring back old stuff that is also broken, if not quite to the same extent?

But also then randomly murder other dark horse stuff that's been around for a while...like heroes. Heroes are nothing without at least one Stratos. Nothing. But they were also doing close to nothing in the meta so...why?

And then hitting a bunch of traps...and banning Heavy. I can almost see how that would make sense except...there are other traps in yugioh. People will just shift to the next tier of slightly worse trap. Or just don't and max everything they hit. You don't need much more than 12 traps for a stunnish deck. That's why Heavy should always be at 1. People NEED to fear Heavy, that by far is the worst thing about this list. Besides the Heavy issue, the message here seems to be: "Use even older cards". Guess it's time to dust off those Trap Holes and Sakuretsu Armors! Sorry, I said I wouldn't be sarcastic.

I just don't see their reasoning in this. Konami loses and people who paid for the meta this format lose. On the surface it seems like they're willing to sacrifice this temporarily for the sake of the game but...it makes me afraid. Afraid that they will just make another card like Judgment or Gateway next format and it will be Tier 0 since almost EVERYTHING relevant was hit. Remember, with Rai-Oh at 1 and good traps hit hard, stun isn't a very viable option against something TRULY good like that. So basically Konami is putting us in a position where we're shit out of luck if they drop something like that again. And they can justify it by saying "It will only last 3 months!" Problem is this will happen over and over again until people rage quit this game entirely. This list may look good right now, it looks like they're trying to ban things that shouldn't have ever been made and prevent any chance of future loops or ftk (OfferingAugus and Dewlorian) but as soon as they want power creep to take over again, it will, and it will be far worse.

Congratulations, you made yourself sound stupid with just the first sentence, even in jest. Well, that's a bit harsh, but come on. You cannot simplify things to pure "This card is a 0 in advantage, so it doesn't need hitting." Graceful Charity says hi, as do Card Destruction (actually, technically it's a -1), Confiscation, and Trap Dustshoot, just to name a few banned cards (one newly banned, much to everyone's benefit). Am I saying Compulse to 1 was right? No (I'll get there later). But saying what you did there was pretty misguided, I say.

By the by, it's funny you should bring those two cards up. Let me tackle them individually for a brief moment.
Dewloren: Has done nothing ever? Hey, here's a fun fact for you: the card has been semi-limited for 3 years, at least, so it's for sure not out of nowhere on that front. It loops cards effortlessly (and can play an impact in Mermails, to whatever extent) and can aid in FTKs and OTKs, something Konami doesn't like, so there's that. Also, as a side note, Fishborg Archer was just released in JOTL, as a 3-star Tuner. Sooooo yeah.
Mind Augus: Ever heard of Gishkill? Gishki FTK? Whatever you wanna call that deck? It topped a couple regionals, and Allen Pennington topped YCS San Diego with it. Well, limiting Mind Augus Gishkills the deck, right then and there. Was it a priority hit? No. But was it a very solid hit to slay an annoying deck, a hit that falls in line with one of Konami's well-known hates? And in a list that has an absolutely colossal number of changes? Why yes, yes it was.

On to the next part, your division of card ages. Before anything else, I'd like to point out that this list is specifically for the TCG, and thusly the decision-making process was far different. Whereas banlists before were mainly controlled by Konami of Japan, this time it was guys like Tewart that had the control. So, of course, you have to take into account the new perspective.
Anyways, why don't we take a look at the banlist from last year and see how it compares to your little charting there for this list, eh?

Dragonfly, Hornet, and Zenmaity had been released in Order of Chaos, in January of 2012, and went to limited in Sept. 2012, with D-Fly and Hornet being key cogs in the deck that won Worlds that year and Zenmaity being part of a very solid Tier 1 deck as well (and both decks also having widely hated advantage-tilting, to continue the comparison). Hieratic Seal of Convocation and Evigishki Gustkraken arrived in May and July, respectively, and also got hits that same year. This evens the number of examples on this list and yours for cards hit that were released that year, 5-5, if you put the babies into one slot. And that's with KoJ doing the dirty work.
Also, there's ALWAYS old cards being loosened on the banlist (in this example, for instance, we have Tsukuyomi, Kalut, Debris, Agent Earth, Reasoning, Mirror Force, D-Draw and E-Tele, among others). I don't think you'd argue that the September list of 2012 was saying "Don't buy our new cards," though, would you? I am, of course, excluding the price comparison, and in that case you do have a tiiiiiiny bit of a point, but that's up to the player's discretion. In the case of Judgment, it was a card that was almost guaranteed to be hit by the banlist, either to 1 or outright banned, so if they wanted to pay the money for the temporary success, that was their decision. The risks were obvious; I feel sorry for absolutely nobody who made the purchase or trade. Plus, it's not like they, let's say, saw a list that unbanned Trishula and went out and spent all their money on them...

Actually, I'm a bit surprised; I would think there would be applause here for the banlist creators, for seeing past the monetary side of things with the list. They knew the card (Judgment) was out there in what it did, and they took action accordingly.

Stratos has actually been a little bit on edge for a while, mind you (if any HERO card was gonna get hit at some point, Stratos would be the one), and you're neglecting the fact that they gave HEROs in general an AHL and E-Call back, plus the third Malicious (balanced out by the fact that you can't search him out, of course~). Of course, the hit hurts the deck, but, I mean, they balanced it a bit with the loosenings on those cards, and nobody gives a shit anyways about the most linear deck within a catapult's fling of the meta. XD

I don't see an issue there on the Heavy situation. If they shift to a lower tier (or just get more creative with stuff), then that's less impact the Heavy banning has and less of a power shift towards the backrow; in fact, that's basically THE way to balance the Heavy hit, is to also slide some of the power traps back down. Also, there's the fact that Judgment got slammed and cards like the Forbidden trio and Safe Zone are making waves in the meta (also, 3 MST and cards like Dust Tornado and Night Beam around). I mean, I really didn't want Heavy to get banned, but the way they handled it was not, actually, a steaming pile of shit. And nobody is going to make like Goat Control and start playing Sakuretsu Armor and shit because of the changes. People will not start maining bad cards because of the Heavy hit, unless they suck at the game (and then you'll run over them easy anyways or succumb to the same bad fortune that always exists in card games).

Their logic was basically trying to fix a lot of fucked up things in the game, as well as loosening their reins on a lot of cards that could bring A. bring the deck back to slight respectability, like BWs possibly being Tier 2 material depending on the meta, or B. Not make much of an impact because the card is outdated (hello, Tsukuyomi), or C. Balance out something else, like the HERO stuff. I don't see why you're not respecting the fact that they're actually looking at the game, figuring out the problem cards, and then making a hugely concerted effort to take it down a notch. Like, this is literally what the vast majority of us have wanted for years, to some extent.

Your fear, by the way, is pure speculation and paranoia. It's something that's definitely not guaranteed, and not to the hyperbolic extent which you dread. Not only that, but you're operating on the assumption that if a card did come into play, that it would guarantee a "Tier 0" deck. Allow me to dissect this one:
1. You do realize that Tier 0 means the deck, in essence, cannot be beaten by another deck pretty much ever, right? That's heavy stuff. This format, by the way, did not have Tier 0, it had two Tier 1 decks and a larger than usual gap down to Tier 2, but it was not Tier 0. Throwing that phrase around is not a wise thing, with it being as drastic as it is, especially because...
2. You don't know what the meta will end up looking like months or years from now, especially with the format looking as diverse as it is now. There's no death and tax-esque guarantee here other than decks winning and losing, ebbing and flowing in the meta.
3. There are ways to get around every single card in the game. Deck Lockdown, Droll & Lock, etc. cropped up with the rise of Prophecy and Judgment, Compulse and such came to wreck Dracossack, etc. I'm pretty sure even if YGArmageddon happened, there would be an out to it somewhere. XD
4. Again, just to make sure we have this clear: You're being hyperbolic and operating on the assumption that things will fall a certain way so that it would happen. While it is in the realm of possibility, and power creep is a very real thing, it's much more situational and much less rapid than you seem to be depicting it.

Harper7000 wrote:

*Takes a bow* I accept my award. So I was thinking and the meta will now be something like:

Infernity
Bujin
Water
Agents
Fire Fist
Constellar
Evilswarm
Dragunities
Dragon Rulers
Boxers
Karakuri Geargia
Re-Soil Psychics
Blackwing
Rock Stun
Zombie
Gadget
Dark World
Some Teledad Variant...maybe

More or less the better decks are higher on the list. But all will be decent at worst...whaat people will actually play is a different matter but I can see any one of these topping regionals or even YCS many of them.

Interesting format. It makes no fucking sense whatsoever, Heavy should really always be at 1, and like I said above I am cringing in anticipation for more power creep cards, but it does allow for a more diverse meta and it IS very interesting to say the least.

EDIT: Let us not forget Chain Beat, which will be trolling everything now. Staple traps may now be a total of 8, but Emptiness is still at 3, it can run Escape Device which is at 3, Fiendish Chain will be a good trap still since Infernities will be blowing shit up all over the place, hell, even Scrap Iron Scarecrow is decent with no Heavy. Not that I'll run it but still.

Firstly, meh at the fake pretentiousness or whatever. You have a lot to learn in that regard.  

Boxers, no. Dragunities lower, Agents lower, Infernities are Tier 2, Fire Fist (4-axis) right near the top, no Geargias in Kuris, and Prophecy is definitely at least Tier 2, maybe borderline Tier 1... also, I see Synchro Goats or Plants or something being in there at least at the start here. GKs could possibly be around BW-level, meta-dependent stuff that could get as high as Tier 2. Just my opinions on the list there... it's a bit hard to predict.

Chill out. Seriously. Just chill. XD

Chain Beat is looking pretty good for sure, but there are drawbacks here too. It did lose some staples for backrow, and Royal Decree/Trap Stun could rise as side deck material, among other things. Also, Fiendish Chain is a big out to the hoppers' effects when played intelligently, and it's going to see a huge rise in play. I still see it as a Tier 2 deck even if it had the representation of a larger or archetypal deck.

Why, Stratos?! I know some cards are unfair when they can be searched with him (mostly D-heroes), but still, this is why I'm stingy about running a deck that relies so much on one card.

a hero lives, e call and mali, I guess

Like I said, it was a balancing act there. They gave HEROs some toys back, and even finally unlimited Malicious, but they hit Stratos in the process (which eliminates Mali's searcher). It's not my favorite change in the list by any means, and it is a little questionable, but it's nothing to get annoyed about unless you for some crazy reason run the deck.

actually banlists should be made to fix the game, not to fix decks.

That's why I don't get why people get all whiny when their pet decks get hit...

gutsberserk wrote:

actually banlists should be made to fix the game, not to fix decks.

This times a thousand. That's what the banlist creators aimed to do with the list, and they did quite a good, synergistic job with it I think.

Also, I still cannot get over Harper's "they're just going to make another Tier 0" statement. XD

Also, to tack onto a point earlier (about Stratos), reading an article by Jason Grabher-Meyer brought up a good point: all those HERO cards that were on the list were there because of Stratos. All those cards could be freed up simply with the banning of one card, which is quite a decent simplification.

Just throwing it out there~

NotSoGallantGallade wrote:

Also, I still cannot get over Harper's "they're just going to make another Tier 0" statement. XD

You know what I can't get over? The fact that I can't seem to post anything on this site anymore without getting criticized or made fun of.

NotSoGallantGallade wrote:

Congratulations, you just made yourself sound stupid in the first sentence.

And congratulations for making yourself look like a prick in the first sentence AS WELL as an idiot. Why do I say idiot? Because you go on to explain that you knew what I was talking about in the same paragraph. Compulsory is just removal. One for one. That's what it is at best. At worst (when used on anything but something from the extra deck) it's a minus. It may be great this format, but it does not deserve a limit just because it is played. I hate when Konami does that. Neither Rai-Oh or BoM deserve a limit either. Used a lot=/=broken. On the other hand, Card Destruction at best was a +7 that hugely sets up your grave and lets your speed through your deck if for some reason you had 7 DW in hand and drew Card D on your turn for example. Also, it fucks with your opponent's hand as well and makes them totally rethink their strategy. Graceful Charity is the same. Draw power is powerful in Yugioh, and setting up your grave is useful to a LOT of deck strategies, more and more as time goes on it seems. You know this. Yet you still said that.

Back to your original quote, while yes, it is technically speculation, it has happened before. It always happens. Therefore there is reason to believe it will happen again. I'm not sure why you don't realize this. I know you've been in the game for at least a few years, so surely you would have recognized a pattern by now, even if you haven't been here since the game's inception like I have. That they will make newer cards better is unarguable. What really worries me is that they will continue making cards the power level of Dragon Rulers and Spellbook of Judgment. Which, by the way, I NEVER said was Tier 0 this format. If you're going to insult me for misuse of terms, read the fucking post right first. I know what Tier 0 is. What I said was if they make something like them now that they banned every card and it's mother, it will be Tier 0. Because it would be.

Again, it technically is speculation, and hey, I would LOVE to be proven wrong. I'd love to have Yugioh max it's potential competitively. But note that I also believe bad power creep will happen because of WHAT they hit, not just their history. Almost all relevant traps were hit or banned needlessly, and Rai-Oh has gone to 1, Book is already at 1, and they killed off Hero Beat which would have been decent with no Heavy. This is killing your basic anti meta deck despite getting a Duality back. So how are we supposed to fight the meta now? With the meta. But history IS important too. Konami always has made OP cards that they hit at a later date, and power creep has slowly (or not so slowly) taken over the game. This is illustrated by the fact that we have had 2 banlists a year and now have 4 per year. Do you realize now? You are calling MY opinion stupid because I'm afraid (not certain) that Konami will do what they have every six months for the last decade or more. While you're saying YOUR opinion that they've had a complete change of heart all of a sudden is better because...why? Let's be honest here: Because you want it to be true.

Speaking of things you like and don't like, it also has been pissing me off that you just take a shit on any deck you don't like. I try posting a deck I like (in casual decks).  Your response?

NotSoGallantGallade wrote:

It's not competitive at all this format.

Thanks for that. I post a few months later bc I have the cards for it irl and want opinions of how I should run it.

NotSoGallantGallade wrote:

-Scrap deck +Anything else.

By the way, Infernity was already Tier 2. In a format with 3 MST and Heavy, Dragon Rulers to outspeed them, Prophecy to pick them apart, and more. Now they can set whatever they want, they weren't hit at all when everything else was banned, and there are few relevant traps anymore while they can search their costless Solemn Judgments and one for one removal traps that kill anything. But why are they still Tier 2 to you? Because you don't like Infernities. You tell me. Every time you watch me duel with Infernities. But...

NotSoGallantGallade wrote:

Fire Fist (4-axis) right near the top.

Why? Because your own 4-axis irl. Not saying they won't be good, but come on man. Infernities even have a decent matchup against 4-axis.

RubberDucky wrote:

Why, Stratos?! I know some cards are unfair when they can be searched with him (mostly D-heroes), but still, this is why I'm stingy about running a deck that relies so much on one card.

NotSoGallantGallade wrote:

It's not my favorite change in the list by any means, and it is a little questionable, but it's nothing to get annoyed about unless you for some crazy reason run the deck.

Which of course you knew he does/did run it because he just said so and his deck topic is the second newest post. Great job calling a new member crazy for running a pretty good deck that you don't happen to like. That will surely get him to stay.

And yet to me you say...

NotSoGallantGallade wrote:

Meh at the fake pretentiousness or whatever. You have a lot to learn in that regard.

...Right...I'll get right on that.

You are my friend, if you weren't I wouldn't even bother writing this novel, but it's just sad to me that this place seems to be turning into a circlejerk, and you're leading it. Everything that I said in the announcement about us being a safe zone is just not true apparently. While I criticized DGz for having snarkiness sometimes, it happens far less than it does here these days.

NotSoGallantGallade wrote:

Like I said, it was a balancing act there. They gave HEROs some toys back, and even finally unlimited Malicious, but they hit Stratos in the process (which eliminates Mali's searcher). It's not my favorite change in the list by any means, and it is a little questionable, but it's nothing to get annoyed about unless you for some crazy reason run the deck.

Ah, yes, hard to believe I run a deck that does well in the current format and is centred around an archetype I've used competitively since T-hero, and casually long before that. Real crazy, that is.

Harper7000 wrote:

You know what I can't get over? The fact that I can't seem to post anything on this site anymore without getting criticized or made fun of.

NotSoGallantGallade wrote:

Congratulations, you just made yourself sound stupid in the first sentence.

And congratulations for making yourself look like a prick in the first sentence AS WELL as an idiot.

Before anything, I would like to apologize. I have been out of line with my asshole-ness of late, and that whole judgmental prick thing that has for some reason taken precedence in much of what I say is really something I need to cut down on. So, honestly, I'm sorry. Now then, with that preface gone, let me try to clarify some things and counter some others, despite still being in that "just woke up" limbo in my mind.


To address the first part there, also, I would like to say that you're not totally out of the realm of blame. While, yes, I've been a dick, you've also been posting some off-the-wall stuff (especially with the single cards), and misperceptions of tiers (Chain Beat Tier 1.5 springs to mind) also contributes. So whilst I took it too far, you weren't exactly Little Red Riding Hood to my wolf.

To address the second part, way to not quote the "Okay, that's a bit harsh," because I knew that my stupid statement was too far and bound to get misinterpreted. I really should have edited that to make it more clear I wasn't actually going to call you out like that.

Harper7000 wrote:

Why do I say idiot? Because you go on to explain that you knew what I was talking about in the same paragraph. Compulsory is just removal. One for one. That's what it is at best. At worst (when used on anything but something from the extra deck) it's a minus. It may be great this format, but it does not deserve a limit just because it is played. I hate when Konami does that. Neither Rai-Oh or BoM deserve a limit either. Used a lot=/=broken. On the other hand, Card Destruction at best was a +7 that hugely sets up your grave and lets your speed through your deck if for some reason you had 7 DW in hand and drew Card D on your turn for example. Also, it fucks with your opponent's hand as well and makes them totally rethink their strategy. Graceful Charity is the same. Draw power is powerful in Yugioh, and setting up your grave is useful to a LOT of deck strategies, more and more as time goes on it seems. You know this. Yet you still said that.

Yes, I know, you were being sarcastic. Still felt I should reply to that part, because the way that statement was typed up was begging to be parried in some way.

Compulse was also arguably the best trap of the meta, and is usually a pretty solid pick for a backrow in most formats. It falls in line with their hits to cards like BTH.

I was merely simplifying things with the advantage thing, because even in sarcasm that statement was pretty meh.

Harper7000 wrote:

Back to your original quote, while yes, it is technically speculation, it has happened before. It always happens. Therefore there is reason to believe it will happen again. I'm not sure why you don't realize this. I know you've been in the game for at least a few years, so surely you would have recognized a pattern by now, even if you haven't been here since the game's inception like I have. That they will make newer cards better is unarguable. What really worries me is that they will continue making cards the power level of Dragon Rulers and Spellbook of Judgment. Which, by the way, I NEVER said was Tier 0 this format. If you're going to insult me for misuse of terms, read the fucking post right first. I know what Tier 0 is. What I said was if they make something like them now that they banned every card and it's mother, it will be Tier 0. Because it would be.

Again, it technically is speculation, and hey, I would LOVE to be proven wrong. I'd love to have Yugioh max it's potential competitively. But note that I also believe bad power creep will happen because of WHAT they hit, not just their history. Almost all relevant traps were hit or banned needlessly, and Rai-Oh has gone to 1, Book is already at 1, and they killed off Hero Beat which would have been decent with no Heavy. This is killing your basic anti meta deck despite getting a Duality back. So how are we supposed to fight the meta now? With the meta. But history IS important too. Konami always has made OP cards that they hit at a later date, and power creep has slowly (or not so slowly) taken over the game. This is illustrated by the fact that we have had 2 banlists a year and now have 4 per year. Do you realize now? You are calling MY opinion stupid because I'm afraid (not certain) that Konami will do what they have every six months for the last decade or more. While you're saying YOUR opinion that they've had a complete change of heart all of a sudden is better because...why? Let's be honest here: Because you want it to be true.

First off, at least to a small extent it seems that Konami (or at least TCG-side) has learned a bit about what kind of havoc a card like Judgment wreaks, and with the banlists being more frequent they do have more opportunities to right the ship IF such a card were to hit the meta.

Secondly, of course there's power creep. That's obvious merely in the ATK/DEF of many monsters these days, where T-King suicides against the former star Airknight Parshath. I didn't deny that at all. What I'm saying is you sound a bit paranoid because you're expecting Legacy of the Valiant (set after Shadow Specters) to have a card that's like "If your Life Points are 2000 or more below your opponent's, draw until you have 7 cards in hand." Have a little faith, for one, know that the banlists come around more often to fix things, and know that even if a deck rises to a very solid Tier 1, there are still ways to stop it.

And when did I say you called this format Tier 0? I had a sidebar saying that this format was not a case of that, that was slightly irrelevant but good for example's sake, but if I actually insinuated you didn't know what Tier 0 was, I apologize. That said, don't insult my reading comprehension like that, please. I'm not perfect, of course (as some of my recent posting has shown), but I do read every post by you and others carefully when considering a reply... usually. XD

The traps were hit because of the Heavy hit, and just because Rai-Oh and Book are at 1 doesn't suddenly mean stun or anti-meta is dead. There are a hundred and twelve ways to go about anti-meta decks, and you're also forgetting that simply teching cards in decks can be very anti-meta (like how I've been maining Kycoo, Vanity's Emptiness and Iron Wall this format in 4-axis). Hell, look at Prophecy and Dragon Rulers and some of the things they've done (especially with Prophecy dropping Priestess, adding stuff like Jowgen and Kycoo, etc). There is ALWAYS a way to fight the meta, now, March 2012, Tele-DAD (Oppression, etc), whenever.

Harper7000 wrote:

Speaking of things you like and don't like, it also has been pissing me off that you just take a shit on any deck you don't like. I try posting a deck I like (in casual decks).  Your response?

NotSoGallantGallade wrote:

It's not competitive at all this format.

Thanks for that. I post a few months later bc I have the cards for it irl and want opinions of how I should run it.

NotSoGallantGallade wrote:

-Scrap deck +Anything else.

By the way, Infernity was already Tier 2. In a format with 3 MST and Heavy, Dragon Rulers to outspeed them, Prophecy to pick them apart, and more. Now they can set whatever they want, they weren't hit at all when everything else was banned, and there are few relevant traps anymore while they can search their costless Solemn Judgments and one for one removal traps that kill anything. But why are they still Tier 2 to you? Because you don't like Infernities. You tell me. Every time you watch me duel with Infernities. But...

NotSoGallantGallade wrote:

Fire Fist (4-axis) right near the top.

Why? Because your own 4-axis irl. Not saying they won't be good, but come on man. Infernities even have a decent matchup against 4-axis.

RubberDucky wrote:

Why, Stratos?! I know some cards are unfair when they can be searched with him (mostly D-heroes), but still, this is why I'm stingy about running a deck that relies so much on one card.

NotSoGallantGallade wrote:

It's not my favorite change in the list by any means, and it is a little questionable, but it's nothing to get annoyed about unless you for some crazy reason run the deck.

Which of course you knew he does/did run it because he just said so and his deck topic is the second newest post. Great job calling a new member crazy for running a pretty good deck that you don't happen to like. That will surely get him to stay.

Ooooooookay, now I'm a bit irked, even despite my obvious culpability. I take great pains to make sure I have an objective approach to decks and their competitiveness, and while my opinionatedness may make it seem like a bit of the opposite, I guarantee you I think through every post about tiering, competitiveness, etc. even more than I do regular posts. Tiering is a bad concept in and of itself, and one that fragments the playerbase a million ways, so I make sure I take a step back, do my research, and come up with something I'm pretty sure is at least very close to the reality. Thusly, I don't appreciate being called a biased asshole and having my words misinterpreted or possibly warped when discussing that stuff.
I'll run through these one by one.

Yeah, I was a huge dick in that topic overall. Seriously, that was bullshit of me. HOOOOOWEVER, the topic title was "Scraps Competitive" and that was already sending you down a bad path. Also, amongst all my dickishness I did actually provide you with some help. Also, if I remember correctly you didn't actually put in the OP that you were doing it IRL and provided that context, so it was a bit open to misinterpretation. I'm most at fault, but I'm not taking full culpability.

Already covered that, already digressed the fact that I'm a major asshole, already let you know that it was a joke maybe a step too far. Not gonna touch this further.

They are Tier 2. For sure they're Tier 2, a very solid Tier 2, and outside of Mermails quite possibly the best aggressive/combo deck in the game (remains to be seen). I don't like the deck, personally, just as a matter of opinion, but know that I still give it credit for its Tier 2 status going into the new meta (and before LTGY hit this past format, arguably). Just because I don't like a deck doesn't mean I think it's shit; that goes for Inzektors, Infernities (which I merely don't care for, not real dislike or disdain like Zekts), Sams, et cetera. I give credit where credit's due.

The thing is, it's a bit hard to predict what the meta will look like, so there will be variation in people's opinions on it. However, I feel like Infernities need to prove themselves a bit and show they're worthy of the step up to Tier 1 status, currently seemingly taken by decks like 4-axis (more in a sec), Mermails, Prophecy, and possibly Verz or Constellars. Tier 1 only has so much room for decks. Also, you can make an argument for so many decks being at least near Tier 1 this format. I've seen you argue for Infernities here and Blackwings being very solid (not Tier 1, necessarily) in another thread, and other times elsewhere. Of course one can do that. However, that's the point: the argument can be made for so many OTHER decks, and possibly with more viable and relevant reasons. I'm not putting you down, but understand that even a deck being really good might not be good enough to hit the top tier on a totally proprietary and usually subjective tiering system.

As for 4-axis and your accusation of me being a biased homer, putting down Infernities in favor of my main deck of 4-axis, well, firstly, that's just bullshit. I like decks over others, I play quite a few decks, but I DO NOT, under ANY circumstances, delude myself into thinking a deck is better than it is. I simply DO NOT go around preaching that 4-axis is the best deck of the format, or that the exact order of decks in a format in terms of competitiveness is this and that and those and all (I didn't do that in reply to you either, by the way, I gave general little tidbits. Don't you go there, sister XD).

Anyways, look at the banlist. What got hit for 4-axis, which was A. the second best deck before Dragons and Prophecies, B. Didn't have Cardinal or Wolfbark at the time, was merely one Tenki, which affect 4-axis even less than its harder-hit 3-axis brother, because Cardinal can recycle Fire Formations. I can run through a LOT of reasons why 4-axis is very widely considered (especially by the "pros") to be one of the best decks of the format heading into the beginning, but I'd rather not be a bit of a hypocrite. You can figure it out on your own, though if you'd like me to run through them I can do so, either here or I can post my deck once it's a bit more settled and give reasoning there.

For one thing, I didn't see his thread, nor did I correlate that with his post at all. Also, that's all it is, is "pretty good." It's been decently solid for years now, but it hasn't made a legitimate impact in a long time, and whether it's Hero Beat or AHL Heroes it's very much linear (which is the reason I personally don't like it, even though I ran Heroes for a format way back when). I didn't mean to call him crazy (again, I didn't see he had posted that thread), and I can see where it looks a bit confrontational. No need for the confrontational tone, however.

Again though, DO NOT call me out on being subjective about this shit, because one of my largest peeves about the game is delusions about competitiveness, extreme subjectiveness, misperceiving tiers, et cetera, and I strive to avoid being guilty of the same errors. I actually took offense by you calling me out on the 4-axis point like that; I would think you'd have more faith in me than for me to resort to shitty homerism about a deck. I apologize if I'm being too harsh, but it's a strong value of mine in this game...

Harper7000 wrote:

And yet to me you say...

NotSoGallantGallade wrote:

Meh at the fake pretentiousness or whatever. You have a lot to learn in that regard.

...Right...I'll get right on that.

Please tell me you realized that was a joke. You didn't quote the winky face accompanying that statement, which was either a mistake or taking me out of context, but it was a joke. I said it because A. I like being pretentious as a joke, and B. I was poking fun at you doing the same. There was absolutely no harm in that statement, promise.

Harper7000 wrote:

You are my friend, if you weren't I wouldn't even bother writing this novel, but it's just sad to me that this place seems to be turning into a circlejerk, and you're leading it. Everything that I said in the announcement about us being a safe zone is just not true apparently. While I criticized DGz for having snarkiness sometimes, it happens far less than it does here these days.

1. Apologies for being a dick (no pun intended? Circlejerk? Dick? Okay, I'll stop). Seriously.

2. It's not much of a circle if there's two people in there. XD

3. You underestimate the snarkiness of DGz (as a member of that forum and whatnot).

The Best Bath Toy Ever wrote:

Ah, yes, hard to believe I run a deck that does well in the current format and is centred around an archetype I've used competitively since T-hero, and casually long before that. Real crazy, that is.

1. Except it's not really that good in the format (especially not this past format). Like I said, it's been a mainstay along the lines of Gravekeepers (comparison because of longevity, to a small extent) and whatnot, bubbling under but still being able to make an impact every now and then, but that's about it.

2. How I was supposed to know you've played it since T-Hero, I'm not quite sure.

3. Hey, I had my own decks like that... ran Evols for quite some time before finally dumping the deck early this year. I get sentimental attachment to decks too, for sure (that's part of the reason I like the game, is being able to have pet decks... as long as one is realistic about said decks. Again, objectiveness).

4. Once again, I never called you crazy, nor meant to (unless your full opinion is really misguided, but I doubt that ^_^). Honest mistake there.

---

If I haven't apologized enough for some of my shitty posting, then here's one more "I'm sorry for being a prick," because I really am.

Also, guts in chat is right, we should chill a bit.

Thank you for being open-minded and aware of your own possible failings even when thrown at you in a ranty way. I may have gone overboard in some areas, the 4-axis point comes to mind. I realize that I was unclear and what I said and not entirely fair. I do think it is Tier 1, and I like it for that matter. The point I was trying to make I guess is that you made them out to be lesser decks despite how much they win, and your deck to be a "real" deck. I too sometimes do that, Inzektors, Dark World, and Lightsworn pop into my mind as decks that are so dependent on luck that I really don't consider it a loss if I lose to them. You either get Hornet/JD/whatever or you lose, basically. But that's not entirely fair of me, or you, to do so.
But when I said it I misconstrued my own thoughts so much that it became a different accusation than what I just said above, instead saying that you're just biased. Even what I meant to say isn't entirely fair. So yeah, sorry. Also, I did quote the winky face but for some reason it didn't appear in the quote...I didn't direct quote that one, I just typed out what you had said in my own post, maybe that's why it didn't show up. Also since you mentioned that, I feel I should mention that actually the title was "Scraps Competitive Again?" implying that it is just a possibility and I didn't even put the Tier as 2, as well as posting it is casual. And I did ask you guys' opinions so I can't entirely be mad at your responses, but the response I got was overboard with negativity, but that's already been addressed and apologized for so no need to go further there.

Anyway...all is forgiven, no grudges are held, it's water under the bridge, it's all rainbows and butterflies, however you want to put it lol. Let's just both focus on acting more as a family instead of people with heavy opinions who argue . Now that that unpleasantness is out of the way, we can have good discussion again.

I too am kinda sad that Stratos is gone. Sure, we have support back that is no longer as broken with him gone, but was anyone really pulling for that? Ecall could have come back with him still here...it is back in OCG. AHL and Mali should stay at 2 while he exists but...who cares? Both are still playable. And Stratos being gone just kills lots of HERO variants that weren't making much of an impact on the metagame but were either good (like Bubble Beat) or fun to play (like Shining Gate). Mali at 3 I meh at even with Stratos gone. It does open up some new interesting stuff now though. More rank 6 builds with good draw power. Plasma is also playable again with 3 Scapegoat. DDT might be a little outdated at this point but teching Diamond Dude can still be fun when you mill DDraw, Duality, RoTA, etc. I guess what I'm saying is, I don't like the change, but hopefully it will spark more creativity in the HERO community. I foresee it being more of throwing the DDraw engine in different stuff than anything else though.

I thought about it some more and this is my humble opinion on what the meta will look like. The earlier one was just thrown together, this one I think is more what it will look like as far as how good the decks are, from best to worst. It's still a rough estimate and it's hard to know what it will actually be given the extreme changes this banlist but yeah:
1:
Fire Fist
Bujin
Infernity
Constellar
Evilswarm
Water
Dragon Rulers

2:
Blackwing
Dragunities
Agents
Prophecy
Karakuri/Karakuri Geargia
Dark World
Boxers
Some Zombie Variant, maybe Vampires?
Some Teledad or D-Hero Variant

Some of the later decks might be Tier 3 still, and some former Tier 3 might surprise us, like Gadgets...or even X Sabers. What do you think about that? Hyunlei says s'up to all the backrow. Also I'm shaky about my placement of Dragons and Prophecy. OCG Dragons at the worst is low Tier 1, but TCG...eh. 2 Sarcophogus, a Card D, and a Rejuvenation is a big difference between how good the 2 versions are, but then in TCG everything was nerfed so...idk. I would think it is also low Tier 1 here. Prophecy I never played against much or piloted much this format bc I hate how it runs and I never seem to bump into them. They can still toolbox stuff but meh. The unfairness of Judgment was what made them meta, and their complete lack of backrow gives them a steep disadvantage in a format with no Heavy, but where dark horse aggro decks are trying to have their chance to finally shine. Even stunnish decks like Constellar can randomly OTK out of nowhere sometimes. That's my opinion, but I don't feel I'm familiar enough with them to have a solid vision for their future. People will still try to run them, I know that.

Prophecy is still dangerous though. They still have all the searchers, they still have Pot of Greed every turn in the form of Tower, they still have Fate which is one of the best removal cards in the game. Plus they can nuke the field via World of Prophecy , which punishes people who set too much backrow because Storm is gone.

Spoiler:

That is all.

-_- are you fucking kidding me? Mayonnaise is CLEARLY tier 1 this format.

Mayonnaise? i dont get it.

@TP: For reference,

Spoiler:

Harper: Nah, clearly Mid-Tier 2.